Why does the ball spin more off of pine needles?

[holeout]

I've noticed over my years of playing that shots off of pine needles, for me, tend to spin a heck of a lot more. Whenever I have a shot like this, whether it be from distance or from near the green, I find the ball spins much more easily given a clean hit (which is usually what happens).

I now hand off the issue to you, forum. Why does this happen for me? I don't really consciously change anything in the way I hit the shot, other than accounting for more spin.

[pecky987]

Originally Posted by holeout

I've noticed over my years of playing that shots off of pine needles, for me, tend to spin a heck of a lot more. Whenever I have a shot like this, whether it be from distance or from near the green, I find the ball spins much more easily given a clean hit (which is usually what happens).

I now hand off the issue to you, forum. Why does this happen for me? I don't really consciously change anything in the way I hit the shot, other than accounting for more spin.

im not entirely sure, but i think its the same reason why a crisply struck short iron from a fairway bunker spins more.

i think its how the club goes from the ground

[Jim Kobylinski]

there is nothing between the ball and the clubface (versus normal shots have grass); plus people tend to hit those shots a little thinner on purpose which will increase spin as well

[cmartingolf]

Originally Posted by Jim Kobylinski

there is nothing between the ball and the clubface (versus normal shots have grass); plus people tend to hit those shots a little thinner on purpose which will increase spin as well

Jim, where is this statement founded? Educate me please. I don't recall ever hitting a thin shot that had more spin than a well struck shot?

[Jim Kobylinski]

Originally Posted by cmartingolf

Jim, where is this statement founded? Educate me please. I don't recall ever hitting a thin shot that had more spin than a well struck shot?

Sure

I have done testing using different wedges to see the effect on "tour grooves" when they first started coming out. While trying different shots i found that hitting the shot slightly thinner on purpose will produce more spin because you are limiting the amount of debri between the ball and the clubface and maximizing ball/clubface friction.

This is also the idea behind brian's tour pitch; which is why it launches a bit lower and has only a couple "hop and stops."

According to Tom Wishon (who is way smarter than i about clubheads and clubhead design) he says that the #1 factor for ballspin off an iron is how "rough" the face is of the iron. The rougher the face the more friction that will be generated and thus spin. This is also why the USGA has a rule that limits that roughness and why the one insert on the pure spin wedge is illegal.

you can also see this in real life if you play one golf course with so-so mown fairways and then say another course with very tightly mown fairways and you will see a dramatic increase in the amount of spin you get once the ball lands on the green.

hope that helps

[jmessner]

I've seen the "thin to win" shot many times. Comes off low and surprisingly, even though it felt terrible, comes to an abrupt halt on the green. In addition to Jim's points, there's a slight contribution from the "gear effect" that's responsible for reducing spin on balls hit high on the face (especially for driver for example). The opposite happens on balls hit thin.

[Richie3Jack]

Pine needles are usually found on top of dirt where there's no or little grass. And because they are not imbedded in the ground like grass is, you're essentially just hitting the ball off of dirt.



3JACK

[Brian Manzella]

When the ball is on the deck, like hardpan, you tend to hit down on it more.

This may give the ball MORE SPIN, but the lower launch and higher ball speed may cause the ball to hop forward several times on landing, with no "check up."

You don't, or wouldn't, do this out of a fluffy lie of pine straw.

This is why the pros use a mid-sole pitch more than a "Ben Doyle-Confessions of a Former Flipper"-style pitch.