+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11

Thread: How Learning Takes Place

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    83

    Default How Learning Takes Place

    This issue probably has more “hair” on it than is found on a horse. If you've looked into it at all, the range of perception is broader than that of politics or religion – maybe both put together. And the issue itself is divided into things like thinking concepts and motor activities. The focus here is “motor” learning, since we are talking about golf which is primarily a motor function.

    No need to discuss the variations – just take a look at some common sense themes. How did you learn as a child? Ride a bike, walk, run, write, use eating utensils,etc?

    We could say just by watching others and that would likely be a lot of it. We could say “trial and error” and that would be a lot of it, too. We could also say “what our parents and others told us,” and that would add another dimension.

    But how did we retain all that? Was it repetition? Practice? Need? Desire? Want? Fear? Demand? Command?

    It is doubtful that anyone can fully fathom the impact delivered by Mother Nature. All of the above may well be involved, but if you try to come up with a way to capture that, you'll simply find a lot of frustration. If you bring yourself to believe the findings of professionals like Erik Erikson, Carl Jung, Alfred Adler and, to a certain extent, Sigmund Freud, and then add the behavioral theories of James Watson and B.F. Skinner, take a dash of Ivan Pavlov and a few others, you'll start to see how complex (not simple) it is to grasp fully how learning takes place.

    It is much easier to examine what we are doing and thinking when we are in the act of reaching a result that has been grounded in our ability to keep doing something well (the result).

    What is clear is that motor learning is more difficult in later years than in infancy and youth. The evidence is that after we reach about 15 or 16, we don't have that special reserve that goes with the natural plan that served our early years, and the older we get the more recessive is the ability to master the new. We start any learning at a point were we “don't know and can't do.” Then, if the peripheral issues “(like need and desire) are urgent enough, we move to a point where “we know, but still can't do.” After while, if we are not bored or frustrated, we'll move on to “we know and can do as long as we keep our minds on our business” (conscious attention). Finally, if we have followed the “rules” (which have rarely been clearly stated), we may arrive at “we know, can do and do not have to think about the action, but must continue keeping our minds occupied” (subconscious competence).

    Now do a little more research and you'll find that there are some factors that are consistently present. 1. Thinking is divided into conscious and non-conscious, with the latter most directly affecting behavior. 2. Human beings can only think one thought at a time, (consciously or non-consciously), no matter how fast thoughts come in succession. 3. If you try to think about what you are doing while you do it, you will suffer any consequences from the speed difference between how fast your mind works and how fast you body works. 4. Human beings do not learn much when too many new things come too fast or too often. 5.The body and the mind work at entirely different speeds. 6. When a person does something effectively, proficiently, consistently and with confidence, the result is an action that takes place while the person's mind is directed to something other than the action itself. (Think about it. When you are driving your car, your mind is not empty. It just isn't thinking consciously about driving or the traffic or the roadway).

    Check it out with yourself, especially with those things you learned before the age of 15 or so.

    From that it is a short step to create a means to develop motor learning that reaches a zenith while honoring the aforementioned issues. If you want learning only for skill, just keep doing what you always did. Skill is the level in evidence for most golfers (conscious competence). For that one must think about what is being done while doing it. If you want to reach the level of habit (automatic) that corresponds to how we learned to ride, and subsequently rode, our bicycles, then it will be necessary to build the habits we require (subconscious competence). And that is marked by the ability to perform a function while consciously thinking about something other than the action itself.

    No one doubts that repetition is part of learning. The problem is “how much repetition.” No one doubts that reinforcement is a necessary ingredient. The problem is, “what kind of reinforcement.” That knowledge and those questions were unnoticed when we were kids. As adults, however, we need that awareness in order to duplicate what Mother nature no longer characteristically takes care of in our behalf.

    Learning that involves systematic behaviors must have a systematic framework. Golf requires such systematic behavior. While the source of the research was lost (files were decimated by flood), we knew in the early 1980s that the retention factor in repetition came in fours. Do something once, there is a 50% immediate loss and 25% more within 48 hours. Two repeats get the same and so do three. But four successive duplications gains 90% retention. Anything more than four improves nothing in retention. Problem there is that the “fours” must be clearly identified to a non-discriminatory human system. It is also found in research that learning is best served in short doses with little “rest” periods in between. So the recommended scheme for repetition is in fours, with a slight break in between each group, and that signals the non-discriminatory system that the “fours” are present. (The 32 swing drill is (4+4)x4=32).

    Most golfers are so busy doing many different things (experimenting) in a practice session that the most basic elements of repetition go unfulfilled. The only learning becomes “changing this or that.” It has been observed that most practice shows players “doing a thousand different things, one time each.” That will surely arrive at the habit of experimentation, but little else.

    Now add that we must have a way to learn something new and that will always start at the skill level. But if we wish to learn something that has the character of a habit, we have to alternate between repetition that learns a skill (conscious competence) and the repetition that develops a habit (subconscious competence). Repetition that merely keeps on repeating is found to waste both time and energy, unless it is organized in “fours.”

    There is a codicil. Once a habit is built, it is there for the duration. We don't lose habits. Skills come and go. Habits stay, virtually forever. We can dismiss any skill, but we can only displace an existing habit by building a new one stronger than the old one. (Still the old one may creep in once in awhile, especially under enough pressure. If the new is sound enough, eventually the old will atrophy). And building either a skill or a habit takes “as long as it takes,” and that will vary considerably from person to person.

    There is no alternative to substantial learning that we can find that does not follow the general format we have outlined here. There are no shortcuts. One must take the entire trip. We cannot arrive without making it.

    When you work with an instructor, keep these principles in mind so that you can practice in a way that will build in what has been pre-determined as needed habits. Even if the instructor is not aware of these things, you can be if you want to be. Fortunately, Homer Kelley left us with a marvelous scheme for getting the pre-determination put together in the most effective manner and there are some instructors who know that quite well. Find them.

  2. #2
    hue
    hue is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    United Kingdom.
    Posts
    1,202

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by keygolf

    fully how learning takes place.

    What is clear is that motor learning is more difficult in later years than in infancy and youth. The evidence is that after we reach about 15 or 16, we don't have that special reserve that goes with the natural plan that served our early years, and the older we get the more recessive is the ability to master the new.
    Carey: This is a very good article. It is very sad that it has had so few hits . I have been learning new sports and working on changes in habits since being a teenager. Boxing ,athletics and even my business. I have always had the attitude to look at myself as one would judge someone else and instruct that person (it happens to be me) to make the changes that are necessary to get the job done. With my golf swing and golf game I have been working on changes all the time. Your Ebooks were a great help when I learned about your ideas and your style survey showed me to be an analyser. I seem to be able to learn new things quicker than most other people. Is there any evidence that if you are constantly learning that you somehow regress to the pre 15 type learning style? Thanks.

  3. #3
    EdZ
    EdZ is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Qindao, China
    Posts
    1,963

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by keygolf
    If you bring yourself to believe the findings of professionals like Erik Erikson, Carl Jung, Alfred Adler and, to a certain extent, Sigmund Freud, and then add the behavioral theories of James Watson and B.F. Skinner, take a dash of Ivan Pavlov and a few others, you'll start to see how complex (not simple) it is to grasp fully how learning takes place.
    The ideas of those gentlemen don't conflict much, just different perspectives (of which Erikson does one of the better jobs of seeing the bigger picture IMO )

    Are you familiar with the work of Harlan D. Kilstein? I would suspect you are from what I have seen. He does an excellent job of conveying how the approaches of those folks work together in learning golf. I would highly recommend his CD's, especially to better players, but the approach he uses is very beneficial to learning, and performing at your best level

    http://www.golfersmind.com/

    His product is far better than the website would lead you to believe...
    Copyright EdZ All Rights Reserved

    "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell

    "we have no friends, we have no enemies, we only have teachers"

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    83

    Default

    [quote]quote:Originally posted by hue



    Is there any evidence that if you are constantly learning that you somehow regress to the pre 15 type learning style? Thanks.
    hue:
    Not that I am aware of. What I have noticed is that pre-15, the default system works strongly in our favor. After that time, we need to do both planning and pre-determination. If we don't pre-determine, the default mode simply leaves us ("stuck") with what we "installed" up to that time.

    In other words, we can't "go back," and have a nother go at the strong default system, but we can plan and gain the same going forward, even if it takes a little longer.

    There are still many who suggest that the time frame is more like 6 or 7 years, than up to early to middle adolescence.
    www.clearkeygolf.com

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    83

    Default

    [quote]quote:Originally posted by EdZ


    The ideas of those gentlemen don't conflict much, just different perspectives (of which Erikson does one of the better jobs of seeing the bigger picture IMO )

    http://www.golfersmind.com/

    His product is far better than the website would lead you to believe...
    EdZ:
    Thanks for the link. Also, if my words sounded like I thought those gentlemen were delivering conflicting ideas, I apologize. That was not my intention. In fact it was their commonality that got my attention all along the way. And I agree wholly about Erikson, who gave us possibly the best outline of developmental issues that can be found.
    www.clearkeygolf.com

  6. #6
    EdZ
    EdZ is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Qindao, China
    Posts
    1,963

    Default

    BTW - thanks for all the great articles.... as someone with a strong psychology background (I have a BA in social/cognitive and psychobiology, mom has a PhD), I really am surprised that it has taken so many years for folks to get how valuable psychology is to learning and performance - especially for a game that requires so much mental and emotional skill to play well. I think you will appreciate Kilstien's approach very much.
    Copyright EdZ All Rights Reserved

    "During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell

    "we have no friends, we have no enemies, we only have teachers"

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    6,217

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by keygolf
    This issue probably has more “hair” on it than is found on a horse. If you've looked into it at all, the range of perception is broader than that of politics or religion – maybe both put together. And the issue itself is divided into things like thinking concepts and motor activities. The focus here is “motor” learning, since we are talking about golf which is primarily a motor function.
    You would think so, but what you call thinking or learning plays a huge part. Reason being is that the frontal lobe of the brain mainly works on the motor functions you speak of (among other things) but it is the parietal lobe of the brain (on top of your head) that deals with the processing of information (among other things). Both parts of the brain need to be able to actively complement the other otherwise there will be disabilities. Take for instance a student who is learning disabled. Whether it be dsylexia, memory issues, whatever it has been found that most of these types of people do not have as well developed of a frontal cortex which deals a lot with your motor functions. Due to this, the pariental lobe has huge issues with processing any information due to the fact the front cortex is having such a hard problem.

    quote:It is doubtful that anyone can fully fathom the impact delivered by Mother Nature. All of the above may well be involved, but if you try to come up with a way to capture that, you'll simply find a lot of frustration. If you bring yourself to believe the findings of professionals like Erik Erikson, Carl Jung, Alfred Adler and, to a certain extent, Sigmund Freud, and then add the behavioral theories of James Watson and B.F. Skinner, take a dash of Ivan Pavlov and a few others, you'll start to see how complex (not simple) it is to grasp fully how learning takes place.
    Very true

    quote:What is clear is that motor learning is more difficult in later years than in infancy and youth. The evidence is that after we reach about 15 or 16, we don't have that special reserve that goes with the natural plan that served our early years, and the older we get the more recessive is the ability to master the new.
    Very well said, however that number really stretches to about 18 years old. It is really no coincidence that many major athletes started at an extremely young age. When you are very young your brain is still developing RAPIDLY. You would be surprised how undeveloped the brain even is @ 8 MONTHS! The human brain doesn't even look like a typical normal brain until the full 9 months, this is why pre-mature birth is very dangerous. A new brain that is developing needs A TON of visual and feel stimulation to be able to function correctly later on in life. The "learning" curve of the brain is an odd one. It is VERY heavily steeped from about 3 years old to about 16 years old, loses some slope around 18 and then drops DRAMATICALLY as age keeps going. this is why people who take up new things later on in life whether it be a sport, language, some new activity it is very difficult to grasp the whole concept. This is also the same reason why doctors will tell you that if you want your children to know more than one language you should be talking to them in BOTH languages FROM BIRTH because it will have an effect as they keep learning. At young ages 3 to maybe 8 years old the brain develops so rapidly that a young child can actually comprehend and learn more than one language. Obviously there are predispositions as to who will do better than others but that is genetics.

    quote:When a person does something effectively, proficiently, consistently and with confidence, the result is an action that takes place while the person's mind is directed to something other than the action itself. (Think about it. When you are driving your car, your mind is not empty. It just isn't thinking consciously about driving or the traffic or the roadway).
    This is because the activity has been "learned" already and the brain uses this "learned" function as a sub-conscious activity. If you wanted to put this into a golfing sense, if you ask a pro who started golf at a very young age many will say they are not sure how they learned to swing rather they just use "feel" and swing the club. This is due to the fact it is engrained in their subconscious on how to swing a club and they just keep producing it naturally like driving a car without thinking about it. This is also the reason why habits are so hard to break and why new swing mechanics tend to drift back into old habits.

    quote:Check it out with yourself, especially with those things you learned before the age of 15 or so.
    Very intuitive....read what i wrote above as to why this is

    quote:From that it is a short step to create a means to develop motor learning that reaches a zenith while honoring the aforementioned issues. If you want learning only for skill, just keep doing what you always did. Skill is the level in evidence for most golfers (conscious competence). For that one must think about what is being done while doing it. If you want to reach the level of habit (automatic) that corresponds to how we learned to ride, and subsequently rode, our bicycles, then it will be necessary to build the habits we require (subconscious competence). And that is marked by the ability to perform a function while consciously thinking about something other than the action itself.
    Again very well written, the reasons for this are written above

    quote:No one doubts that repetition is part of learning. The problem is “how much repetition.” No one doubts that reinforcement is a necessary ingredient. The problem is, “what kind of reinforcement.” That knowledge and those questions were unnoticed when we were kids. As adults, however, we need that awareness in order to duplicate what Mother nature no longer characteristically takes care of in our behalf.
    Again very well said, the main reason for this is due to the rapidly developing brain at a very young age.

    quote:There is a codicil. Once a habit is built, it is there for the duration. We don't lose habits. Skills come and go. Habits stay, virtually forever. We can dismiss any skill, but we can only displace an existing habit by building a new one stronger than the old one. (Still the old one may creep in once in awhile, especially under enough pressure. If the new is sound enough, eventually the old will atrophy). And building either a skill or a habit takes “as long as it takes,” and that will vary considerably from person to person.
    Again very well said (do i hear an echo lol) however if you want to break a habit, no matter the habit. I learned in a pyschology class that most habits can be broken if you do whatever you are trying to change (say changing your grip from overlap to interlock) everyday for 10-15minutes a day for about 3-4 weeks. If you have done it correctly you will have replaced, not changed your habit with the new habit (this being the interlock grip). You can check to see if you did it correctly by trying to go back to your original grip, if you can without a problem you haven't replaced the habit. But if you go back and it just plain doesn't "feel" right you have replaced the habit. This worked for me when i changed from interlock to overlap.

    quote:When you work with an instructor, keep these principles in mind so that you can practice in a way that will build in what has been pre-determined as needed habits. Even if the instructor is not aware of these things, you can be if you want to be. Fortunately, Homer Kelley left us with a marvelous scheme for getting the pre-determination put together in the most effective manner and there are some instructors who know that quite well. Find them.
    I agree as well, hopefully some of what i have added has contributed to some of the actual reasons why learning happesn the way it does. I recently took a brain and behavior course and i apparently didn't know i "learned" so much from it until i saw this post. Hopefully i have conveyed what i have learned to some of you.

  8. #8
    bts
    bts is offline
    Senior Member bts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Posts
    392

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by keygolf

    ............... (Think about it. When you are driving your car, your mind is not empty. It just isn't thinking consciously about driving or the traffic or the roadway).
    ..........................
    Very true and wish golf were just like that.

    However, hitting a desire golf shot is like driving a car (althought much less motor skill is involved) 100 mph (or more) safely through a short bridge slightly wider than the tire track hanged couple hundred feet above a creek.

    It's better to "think what is supposed to" (if more golf is to be played), which, IMO, is what building a habit is all about.
    People hack, just like they eat, have sex and sleep.
    Before getting it, the more it makes sense to you, the less it does to God; the more you learn, the less you know.
    Intention Golf: A hacking (golf) swing is the body reaction to the hacker's (golfer's) intention of moving the ball (club) through the club (ball) with the hands.
    How is it possible to play (and teach) golf well without knowing the answer of My 10 Questions?
    Chien-ming Wang, Go! Go! Go!

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    USA.
    Posts
    83

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by bts

    quote:[i]
    Very true and wish golf were just like that.
    ....
    It's better to "think what is supposed to" (if more golf is to be played), which, IMO, is what building a habit is all about.
    I'm not sure I understand your meaning, but having said that, I say that "golf IS like that," IF you learn the principles of playing on automatic and apply them. If you mean that one must plan ahead, you are right. That's what pre-shot planning is for - to create a "plan" for the upcoming shot. If you have built habits, that pre-shot period merely calls up the habits you need for what is ahead. It is not a make-things-up-as-you-go proposition - unless you don't have enough, or the right, habits.

    And the analogy of driving does break down a little since driving has a lot of reaction in it, whereas golf is involved more with intiative, nothwithstanding that I keep hearing some refer to "reacting to the ball." One does not react to anything that is standing still. We act upon it. That's initiative. You can react to a moving ball if you wish, but it'll cost you a couple of strokes.(That is unless it's in a moving water hazard and you elect to try hitting it).
    www.clearkeygolf.com

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    6,217

    Default

    quote:Originally posted by bts

    quote:Originally posted by keygolf

    ............... (Think about it. When you are driving your car, your mind is not empty. It just isn't thinking consciously about driving or the traffic or the roadway).
    ..........................
    Very true and wish golf were just like that.

    However, hitting a desire golf shot is like driving a car (althought much less motor skill is involved) 100 mph (or more) safely through a short bridge slightly wider than the tire track hanged couple hundred feet above a creek.

    It's better to "think what is supposed to" (if more golf is to be played), which, IMO, is what building a habit is all about.
    I think what keygolf was trying to explain is what i talked about above that you want golf and the swing to become a part of the subconscious and not the conscious part. When you are driving a car you aren't consciously adjusting to every input (some yes but not all) but the subconscious is doing most of the work automatically. If you could get your swing to do this, you'd be surprised how much more consistent you would play

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11