+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Thread: Explanation: Open Face & Closed Face Drivers and effects on Loft

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    6,223

    Default Explanation: Open Face & Closed Face Drivers and effects on Loft

    So, my other thread was getting a little off topic so i deleted some posts and decided to start a new thread to clear up some confusion that surrounds both open faced heads and closed face heads. So here goes:

    Driver A:

    - Measured with a 1* closed face angle
    - Measured with 9* of loft

    Now, we all know if we want to hit a relatively straight shot we need a path that is going somewhere in the neighborhood of 2* inside/out with a face angle (at impact) that is open around 2*. So how are you going to accomplish this if the face is already closed 1*? The answer is you can't. The only way you could is to allow the face to open almost 3* (1 to make up for the face angle and 2 for the ball flight). All of this "opening" of the face through impact area adds loft. Just like if you took a wedge and "opened it" for a flop shot. This type of driver is designed this way on purpose for the golfing masses for mainly reducing the average golfer's tendency to slice the ball. Most average slicers hit the ball with probably something like a 4-6* open face. So if you give them a driver that is already 2-3* closed you have effectively "closed the face" for them some. But what if you aren't a slicer? Yup, it's going waaaaaaaaaaay left my friend.

    Driver B:

    - Measured with a 1* open face angle
    - Measured with 9* of loft

    Now this driver is basically the opposite. If you wanted to put your normal swing on the ball where you achieve that 2* open face at impact, it will now be 3* open because the face is already 1* open. So the ball will fade in most cases because it is too open for that straight shot or 1 yard draw shot. Now, how do you get rid of that? You will have to close the face at impact (which decreases loft) to again achieve the 2* open face condition at impact.

    ------------------------------------------------------

    So read what i wrote a few times before you post, it will make sense i promise. Essentially that is why if you are a fairly decent golfer and are given a closed face driver you will hook it, or to hit it straight you will tend to hit it higher and shoter (more loft, more launch, more spin). Same thing with the open face, you will tend to hit it lower with less launch and spin because to hit it straight you had to decrease the loft at impact.

    Hope that helps.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    172

    Default Effective Loft

    In clubmaking circles, that's the effect of effective loft. Generally, it is assumed that for every one degree closed (or open) the head, the actual loft when struck square increases (decreases for open) by one degree. That's why I measure the loft with a square face angle (forget the fact it's near impossible to measure face angle accurately any more with the rounded soles on some drivers).

    Also interesting to consider is that the tolerance on loft AND face angle is usually 1 degree for each so in the worst case your driver head could be off by as much as 2 degrees from stated loft (assuming they even are trying to match the stated loft - but that's another thread). Maybe one reason an off the rack driver isn't a good choice unless you fit yourself with a launch monitor with that exact head.

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    6,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jmessner View Post
    In clubmaking circles, that's the effect of effective loft. Generally, it is assumed that for every one degree closed (or open) the head, the actual loft when struck square increases (decreases for open) by one degree. That's why I measure the loft with a square face angle (forget the fact it's near impossible to measure face angle accurately any more with the rounded soles on some drivers).

    Also interesting to consider is that the tolerance on loft AND face angle is usually 1 degree for each so in the worst case your driver head could be off by as much as 2 degrees from stated loft (assuming they even are trying to match the stated loft - but that's another thread). Maybe one reason an off the rack driver isn't a good choice unless you fit yourself with a launch monitor with that exact head.
    Couple things, i have been told that there isn't a 1:1 ratio when it comes to loft/face angle. It's more like 1:0.6; meaning for every 1* open or closed you are going to be increasing or decreasing effective loft 0.6*. I don't remember why, can you expand?

    Also your 1* tolerance i would say is probably even that accurate unfortunately, in most cases it is a +/- 2* for face angle and/or loft! Pretty hard to find that 9.5* driver loft when all the 9.5* driver lofts are 10.5* or higher. This also makes demoing clubs difficult because maybe you were using a 9.5* X Driver with a loft of 10.0* on that demo. However when your order comes in, it's a 9.5* X Driver but the measured loft is maybe 11*. That will increase your launch and spin and not be optinmum.

    That's why the component world has a slight edge when it comes to drivers imo because they can be hand picked for loft and face angle, accurately. I don't know if you can go into Golf Galaxy or Golfsmith and bring 10 drivers to the clubmaker and tell him, "hey measure these for me." LOL

  4. #4
    Senior Member Bill Miracle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Daytona Beach, FL
    Posts
    595

    Default Hmmm....

    THis may explain the problems Im having with the driver. I have a cally FT-3 Tour, 9.5.

    I have been struggling with this driver of late...high fades or a ball that goes really straight and then goes sharp right at the end.

    This driver could be from 9.5-11.5 and actually up to 3* open (1 degree plus tolerance).

    What would be the best single thing to try to counteract this?

    Stronger grip on the driver or close the face more at address?
    Bill Miracle
    Hacker University Graduate - 2008

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    57

    Default the best single thing......

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Miracle View Post
    THis may explain the problems Im having with the driver. I have a cally FT-3 Tour, 9.5.

    I have been struggling with this driver of late...high fades or a ball that goes really straight and then goes sharp right at the end.

    What would be the best single thing to try to counteract this?

    ?
    would be a live lesson from brian where he could tell you exactly why you hit it like you do and what to do about it!
    dmac

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    6,223

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Miracle View Post
    THis may explain the problems Im having with the driver. I have a cally FT-3 Tour, 9.5.

    I have been struggling with this driver of late...high fades or a ball that goes really straight and then goes sharp right at the end.

    This driver could be from 9.5-11.5 and actually up to 3* open (1 degree plus tolerance).

    What would be the best single thing to try to counteract this?

    Stronger grip on the driver or close the face more at address?
    The FT-3 tour is not a forgiving driver for 1. Two, the tour models tend to have slightly open faces. However no manufacturer in the world would allow even a "tour type head" to have more than 1* of an open face because the % of people who could play it would be so low, it would be a flop revenue wise. More than likely your head is .5-1* open at the most. The only driver i know of with that open of a face from the factory is the Cleveland Hibore XL Tour which is 2.5-3* open which they state.

    Also the FT-3 retail tour head is a very neutral driver when it comes to its COG location. The non-tour heads (and in other brands too) have a lot of weight in the heel to help with the average person's slice.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Bill Miracle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Daytona Beach, FL
    Posts
    595

    Default Any recommendations on forgiving drivers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kobylinski View Post
    The FT-3 tour is not a forgiving driver for 1. Two, the tour models tend to have slightly open faces. However no manufacturer in the world would allow even a "tour type head" to have more than 1* of an open face because the % of people who could play it would be so low, it would be a flop revenue wise. More than likely your head is .5-1* open at the most. The only driver i know of with that open of a face from the factory is the Cleveland Hibore XL Tour which is 2.5-3* open which they state.

    Also the FT-3 retail tour head is a very neutral driver when it comes to its COG location. The non-tour heads (and in other brands too) have a lot of weight in the heel to help with the average person's slice.
    How about the FT-i?
    Bill Miracle
    Hacker University Graduate - 2008

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    6,223

    Default

    The new FT-5 and the FT-I are getting phenominal reviews. The FT-5 is a much more forgiving driver compared to the FT-3 and a lot of people have made the switch to it as well.

    To be honest, the Ft-5 is the only driver that interests me enough to get the Cleveland Comp out of my bag. however it is a pricey dollar per yard ratio if i wanted to pick one up. I mean even if i gained a few mph of ball speed, that isn't going to translate into a ton of new found yardard.

    Another driver getting rave reivews (and much cheaper) is the Hibore XL (not the tour model). Much better than the original and just as forgiving.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    SoCal
    Posts
    172

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kobylinski View Post
    Couple things, i have been told that there isn't a 1:1 ratio when it comes to loft/face angle. It's more like 1:0.6; meaning for every 1* open or closed you are going to be increasing or decreasing effective loft 0.6*. I don't remember why, can you expand?

    Also your 1* tolerance i would say is probably even that accurate unfortunately, in most cases it is a +/- 2* for face angle and/or loft! Pretty hard to find that 9.5* driver loft when all the 9.5* driver lofts are 10.5* or higher. This also makes demoing clubs difficult because maybe you were using a 9.5* X Driver with a loft of 10.0* on that demo. However when your order comes in, it's a 9.5* X Driver but the measured loft is maybe 11*. That will increase your launch and spin and not be optinmum.

    That's why the component world has a slight edge when it comes to drivers imo because they can be hand picked for loft and face angle, accurately. I don't know if you can go into Golf Galaxy or Golfsmith and bring 10 drivers to the clubmaker and tell him, "hey measure these for me." LOL
    Jim

    I haven't done the math (I may give it a try), but I first saw 1:1 approximation in from Ralph Malty in a clubmaking book. It's been repeated often, but it's probably not exact. In my measuring of clubs, though, there is definitely an effect, and 1:1 seems close.

    I've been a hobbyist clubmaker for many years and most of the topline component heads are built to meet a 1* tolerance, and many are made in the same foundries as some of the OEM stuff. That being said, I've measured some component heads lately that have been off in tolerance so go figure! That's why, for myself, I always request a hand picked head of known loft and face angle and verify it before I install the shaft. I think even Golfsmith will hand pick if you order one of their component heads - not sure if they'll do that on OEM heads. I would definitely say buyer beware on buying Drivers off the rack - clubmaker/fitter could do you much better.

    Jay

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    6,223

    Default

    Thanks Jay.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11